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Drofgod969
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 Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:24 am Post subject: |
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*imagains Ronald dressed up as 007 and trying to whoo Betty while trying to act like 007*
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silverleaf
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Tearlach
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silverleaf
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Kiala_Tiagra
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Caroline
Royal Member of BonBon
Joined: 22 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: |
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(( Hey Gang,
Well, I finally got caught up with the last few pages, and… I still have to say that my opinion of Red hasn't changed. His motivation still hasn't changed. My opinion has actually worsened.
If you look at his actions and words, he is "protecting" Mary. If they are in love and to be married, does she really need to be protected by him? He's also giving Mary a double standard. He's pretty much telling her she needs to stay chaste and pure and innocent, so she can be a proper lady. And, given in the… condescending way in which he "gently" tells her this, it is very hypocritical given his past. He's free to sow his wild oats where ever he cares to, but she cannot spend an intimate moment with her beloved. Which, in turn, is also saying that he doesn't have to be chaste and pure, as he's a "gentleman." Also, look at the fact he never de-gowns. He purposely leaves a layer of his clothing between them, to keep them from having any unnecessary physical contact.
In addition to that, if you read his actions during the entire pleasuring of Mary event, he doesn't do the act because he loves her, or because he wants both of them to be happy. He's doing it to keep her quiet and docile. And, he also refuses to let her experiment with him. When she tries, he forcibly pushes her away. Why? Given his other actions, it's because he wants something else, and he doesn't want to have the baggage of Mary. And even when he "relents" and accepts her affections, why is he the one only giving "affections?" It might be great that he's tasting her womanhood; however, Mary, to me, seems like the girl who gets an emotional bond from being able to also make her partner happy as well. He pretty much denies her that bit of joy, and instead gives her what he wants. Very selfish of him. Lastly, when the act is done, he doesn't kiss her goodnight. A goodnight kiss is, traditionally, a very sweet, pure, and romantic way to tell someone you love them. He, instead, almost insults her by kissing her on the forehead. You kiss children on the forehead.
So, I'm still not convinced of Red's sincerity. He pops in, and then immediately pops out. If he really loved Mary, wouldn't he at least have tried to talk with her in a more normal setting, such as walking around town or something. Nope. Instead he's making a foray into town to spy on something else, and Mary just happened to be there. It's all very… vile of him. )) |
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Tearlach
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Joined: 04 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the world of Victorian hypocrisy. As you mentioned in your post men/males were able to have as many lovers as they wished, in some cases even encouraged. It was seen as a "roguish" trait, sportive almost.
But a high born lady or women born to a middle class family was expected to be walked up the altar a virgin. If a woman, high or low class, should have a child out of wedlock the she would be ostracised by family, friends and society as a whole.
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Symphony
Royal Member of BonBon
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't get the impression that Red really cares about any of that himself. Or if he does, it's not because it matters to him, it's because he simply wants to protect Mary from anyone who would think badly of her for having slept with another man before being married.
Just look at how he says "pure" and "not pure", as well as the look on his face in the last panel of page 25. He doesn't look like someone who believes in these things, but instead as someone who sadly realizes that this is how most people see these things, and there's nothing he can do to change it.
Why would he like Betty so much if he thought so little of her for having slept with so many men? I think it's clear that Red really isn't attracted to Mary. He sees her as a friend, and he's going to mary her not because it's what he really wants, but because he believes it his duty.
Mary doesn't love Red either. She just wants to have sex, and she wants to be loved. She's in love with the thought of having a man who loves her. That's why she's throwing herself at the available males. Mary doesn't love Red any more than she loved William, before she hit him with that chair IMHO.
BTW, I think that Red came to Bon Bon because of Mary. He just stopped by the Delight Castle on his way, because he wanted to talk to Betty. His promise to his father is what brought him back.
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Caroline
Royal Member of BonBon
Joined: 22 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:07 am Post subject: |
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((Symphony,
That still goes into the catagory of how does Red get the ability to determine what's right for Mary? Shouldn't Mary have a say of her own? That's... might self-righteous of him to just assume Mary has no real feelings, and is just... wanting to be loved.
And, given all his other duplicity up to this point (lying to Betty, lying to William, lying to Mary in the past, lying to Simon), what does it matter what his face says? Maybe he's so used to... acting charming he doesn't really know when to turn it off. As such, being that he can "cry on queue", his face is no better a tell than his actions are.
As such, I don't like him. Right now, he's playing the part of the "sensitive-friend-from-long-ago". And that's, to me, what he's doing. He's playing the part.
If he were as noble as he says he is, he'd tell Mary that he doesn't love her. He would tell Mary to find her own path. Instead, he's being exactly what he suppossedly can't stand. He's playing off Mary's emotions and earnestness to get what he wants. )) |
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silverleaf
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Symphony
Royal Member of BonBon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Once again we are on opposite sides in how we view Red. 
| Caroline wrote: | | That still goes into the catagory of how does Red get the ability to determine what's right for Mary? Shouldn't Mary have a say of her own? That's... might self-righteous of him to just assume Mary has no real feelings, and is just... wanting to be loved. |
Red hasn't assumed that. That one was just me and my own personal impression of Mary. 
I don't see how she could possibly love Red. He has just come back into her life, and to me, she doesn't show any interest in his personality. Just his sex. 
| Caroline wrote: |
And, given all his other duplicity up to this point (lying to Betty, lying to William, lying to Mary in the past, lying to Simon), what does it matter what his face says? Maybe he's so used to... acting charming he doesn't really know when to turn it off. As such, being that he can "cry on queue", his face is no better a tell than his actions are. |
I do agree that he doesn't handle all these situations so well. I'm not really sure if he has outright lied to anyone. I think it's more a case of him withholding some information. Like how he hasn't told Mary about sleeping with Betty. Or how he didn't tell anyone about the girls at the Delight Castle when he was young.
| Caroline wrote: |
If he were as noble as he says he is, he'd tell Mary that he doesn't love her. He would tell Mary to find her own path. Instead, he's being exactly what he suppossedly can't stand. He's playing off Mary's emotions and earnestness to get what he wants. )) |
Again I agree that openness and honesty would be better, but I don't get the impression that he really wants to marry Mary. He's doing it because he knows that's what his father wanted, and for whatever reason, that's more important to him than what he wants for his own life. He's giving up on living a happy life with Betty.
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Caroline
Royal Member of BonBon
Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 2173
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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((Hey Symphony,
I guess that means that the story is pretty well writtin, if we're both convinced of completely different images of Red.
^_^ )) |
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Symphony
Royal Member of BonBon
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed it does. Vanessa is really good at creating characters and a story people are interested in.
One of the things that made me join was the possibility of discussing the content with other members. I'm really glad that the story is so good that people want to talk about what might happen next and the motives of the characters.
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Tearlach
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Joined: 04 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Going off at a angle here to the conversation. Did you know that it was legal in Britain for most of Queen Victoria's reign for a woman to be beaten with a cane if the husband felt she was not doing her duties as a wife. In fact it was stated in the law that the man could beat his with a cane up to a quarter of an inch in diameter or approx 1 cm any thing larger and he could be prosecuted. The mail order catalogs of the day even featured such canes for sale!
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UltimaWolf0
Royal Member of BonBon
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 1556
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ronald wrote: | Yes. I'm fine.
As Vanessa stated. The problem is with her Internet or email.
This is the reason why pages are being posted so late or backdated because the update was for a specific week, and getting the pages late I post them late (but intended for a specific date).
I hope Vanessa can fix her email/Internet.
The emails actually have a "sent date" and she did infact send it a certain day. But some how I receive em really late.
It could be attachments are delayed as a result of some mail server file scans? Who knows.
Hope you guys enjoy the comics so far though. |
That's good to hear sir. |
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Corran
Royal Member of BonBon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Tearlach wrote: | | Going off at a angle here to the conversation. Did you know that it was legal in Britain for most of Queen Victoria's reign for a woman to be beaten with a cane if the husband felt she was not doing her duties as a wife. In fact it was stated in the law that the man could beat his with a cane up to a quarter of an inch in diameter or approx 1 cm any thing larger and he could be prosecuted. The mail order catalogs of the day even featured such canes for sale! |
The "Rule of Thumb?"
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Kiala_Tiagra
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Tearlach wrote: | | Going off at a angle here to the conversation. Did you know that it was legal in Britain for most of Queen Victoria's reign for a woman to be beaten with a cane if the husband felt she was not doing her duties as a wife. In fact it was stated in the law that the man could beat his with a cane up to a quarter of an inch in diameter or approx 1 cm any thing larger and he could be prosecuted. The mail order catalogs of the day even featured such canes for sale! |
..... that is crazy!
and in queen victoria's reign? i dont think she is supporting woman with that rule >_>
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Rune174
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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As in legal right now or back then?
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Leaf
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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This is only back then. Thankfully, it's no longer legal!
Poor William... He's got to deal with being around Dorian at the wedding... If the event actually happens. I get the feeling Red actually invited Dorian because he secretly doubts William's story about being gay. By inviting Dorian, Red will test out the troubled gambler's story and see if it holds water or not. It will either end in William being exposed for his lie and getting in serious trouble with Mr. Blue or with William pulling it off, but being mortified for quite some time.
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Last edited by Leaf on Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tearlach
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Queen Victoria did very little to advance women's rights during her reign.
In 1870 Queen Victoria wrote:"Let women be what God intended, a help mate for man, but with totally different duties and vocations.".
It only became legal for a woman to divorce her husband in 1857 even then it was a very tortuous and long-winded affair.
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Symphony
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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It's interesting to see Mary's reaction in the latest page. Has it made her more interested in having sex, or less interested? I'm actually not sure myself. I mean, she looks and seems disappointed, but she also thinks that actually making love must be better.
I wonder how this will affect her behaviour around men from this point on. 
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UltimaWolf0
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Wonder where Mary will go with this. |
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kommy
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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If William has any say, Mary will go with Red. Just remembered just under how much financial pressure is to see Red and Mary wed as swiftly as humanly (catly?) possible. Things are looking up for Will, despite any awkwardness likely to ensue with always gay Dorian showing up soon. Not on the job for a week and a fiance comes in to wed Mary and already preparations for the wedding and being discussed.
Were I Will and had similar creditors with a "Break a Kneecap" style collections policy, I'd be overjoyed. 
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silverleaf
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Leaf
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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And it seems that familiar old phrase rings true again: "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." I don't think he went back for Betty, so much as she ran into him and confronted him instead. Though I wonder where this confrontation is at?
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Symphony
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it's unlikely that he went back to her, as he may have had some unfinished business he needs her help for. Or perhaps he just feels so bad about himself, that he simply wants to be punished by her. 
Whatever the reason, I'm very much looking forward to Issue 12.
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UltimaWolf0
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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I guess it's true that you should really be careful of what you wish for.  |
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Artyom Derison
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Kiala_Tiagra
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The Adept
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